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Old 07-09-2016, 10:47 AM
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Donna Donna is offline
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Nathan does not teach that the "beast" is a man.

It is a New government that forms.

It cannot be a person, because he has been before..re-incarnation does not happen so it must be a form of governemnt.

Rev 17:18
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The Bible also describes the ten horns of the beast as ten kings...


Rev 17:12
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Now I have heard and even seen conjoined twins..but never 11 human beings stuck together.


God has said that ALL will stand in judgment. Every person that ever lived will stand before GOD and be judged...but the beast, and death are thrown directly into the lake of fire without first being judged.



Rev 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


My thoughts....
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  #12  
Old 07-09-2016, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna View Post
Nathan does not teach that the "beast" is a man.

It is a New government that forms.

It cannot be a person, because he has been before..re-incarnation does not happen so it must be a form of governemnt.

Rev 17:18
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The Bible also describes the ten horns of the beast as ten kings...


Rev 17:12
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Now I have heard and even seen conjoined twins..but never 11 human beings stuck together.


God has said that ALL will stand in judgment. Every person that ever lived will stand before GOD and be judged...but the beast, and death are thrown directly into the lake of fire without first being judged.



Rev 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


My thoughts....
I agree, Donna, thanks for posting.

All this "system" talk smacks of dominion-ism.
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  #13  
Old 07-09-2016, 11:20 AM
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I agree, Donna, thanks for posting.

All this "system" talk smacks of dominion-ism.
I think, because "systems" is the new buzz word for the NAR that sometimes folks who use the word properly...raise (not meaning to) red flags.
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  #14  
Old 07-10-2016, 12:29 PM
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Michael E. Smith Michael E. Smith is offline
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I've always related the first beast and second beast of Rev 13 as that of being the antichrist and false prophet. Antichrist appering out of the future 8th kingdom (Rev 17: 10-11) during the last days before Christ's second coming.

The head wound to death and revived again has no reference to antichrist, but to one of the heads of the beast, which are all kingdoms and not men. The antichrist is merely the human head of the futurist 8th kingdom. He does not come from one of the 10 horns (Rev 17: 12-13).

The kingdoms of this world have always been controlled by godly or satanic angels, and wars on earth are lost or won as a result of battles in the heavenlies between the good and bad angels.

I believe the beast that comes out of the abyss is a satanic angel that was confined there in the past, and not the human spirit of some dead man. When he is loosed, he will use the antichrist to exercise satanic power and dominion to deceive and enslave the nations.

Antichrist will be a man and will have a religious leader in the false prophet, also a man. Personal pronouns are used of them indicating they are persons.
Both are cast alive into the lake of fire (Rev 19:20) at Christ's second coming and are still there 1000 years later when satan is ultimately cast in there also (Rev 20:10).
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  #15  
Old 07-12-2016, 04:44 AM
Messy49 Messy49 is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael E. Smith View Post
I've always related the first beast and second beast of Rev 13 as that of being the antichrist and false prophet. Antichrist appering out of the future 8th kingdom (Rev 17: 10-11) during the last days before Christ's second coming.

The head wound to death and revived again has no reference to antichrist, but to one of the heads of the beast, which are all kingdoms and not men. The antichrist is merely the human head of the futurist 8th kingdom. He does not come from one of the 10 horns (Rev 17: 12-13).

The kingdoms of this world have always been controlled by godly or satanic angels, and wars on earth are lost or won as a result of battles in the heavenlies between the good and bad angels.

I believe the beast that comes out of the abyss is a satanic angel that was confined there in the past, and not the human spirit of some dead man. When he is loosed, he will use the antichrist to exercise satanic power and dominion to deceive and enslave the nations.

Antichrist will be a man and will have a religious leader in the false prophet, also a man. Personal pronouns are used of them indicating they are persons.
Both are cast alive into the lake of fire (Rev 19:20) at Christ's second coming and are still there 1000 years later when satan is ultimately cast in there also (Rev 20:10).
Pretty much the way I see it too, Michael.

The word "system" is not in any "older" Bibles. It is used a few( I believe 10 ) in the NLT and a couple of times in 2 other translations.

I am not trying to get into "word games" here because I believe in the King James version. Not my point.

I believe we are all trying to explain "symbolic" terms in our own words and that is okay.

Now, for my take. I believe that the beast is a king(a singular male person, indwelled with satanic power). Kings have a kingdom(s} and subjects, by definition. The last "king", before Jesus comes to rule from David's throne in Jerusalem, will rule an antichrist kingdom with subjects who have a "mark". It is the number of a man. It is 666 and all who take that mark are eternally lost into hell and then the lake of fire.

This final "human" king will set up shop in Jerusalem( Daniel 11:36-45) and direct his attacks from God's Most Holy Mountain( the Temple mount, where the dome of the rock is over the Holy of Holies, right now).

Who will be able to do that these days? A Muslim, right? Who is the most likely Muslim to be able to do this? In my opinion, he currently resides at 1600 Penn. Ave. in the WHITE MOSQUE. That resident there has already taken this country down and is just waiting for his final "coup de gras" of the USA . A few more things must fall into place in the middle east, and then he will make his move. I believe that it is very possible that he is the 12th imam of Shia Islam, the Mahdi who "was, and is not, and is of Revelation 17.

I have not taken the time to research the "caliphates of the past" but it would be a way to find out about the number of Islamic kings in the past who could fit Scripture in Rev. !7.

Do you know that the current occupant of the white mosque in Washington will not say ISIS, he says ISIL which is a far larger area of territory that they want to conquer in the Mideast. Do a google search of Wikipedia- Mahdi for the facts about that.

We are in dangerous times and we need our spiritual radar to be "fine-tuned with prayer, confession, and preparation for the time that is coming to "try" those who dwell on the face of the whole earth"

Come QUICKLY, Lord Jesus. Amen??

Messy 49,
Ken and Barb
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Old 07-22-2016, 04:11 AM
Karl Karl is offline
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I think most of this will be recognized only after the fact, just as the Messianic prophecies were. God concealing a matter. And I know it is the honor of kings, etc. but we see through a glass darkly. I see a lot of division within the body over interpretation. That's not to say it shouldn't be discussed. I don't think anybody has it right, or can have it all right, is my point. And I make it more a point to know what the Bible says, so I will recognize it when it happens, rather than spend a lot of time in speculation.

All that being said:

I find it interesting that all of the Protestant fathers (Luther, Calvin, Knox, Wycliffe, etc) agreed that the office of Pope was "The Little Horn". They didn't agree on some things, but on this point, there was agreement.

This would be a semi-example of recognizing prophecy in hindsight. The pope wasn't a future unknown character.

I sometimes have problems with the idea that all end time prophecies are future events. Future characters. That God left us with a 2,000 year prophetic "blank space".

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know it all, and I never will. I have most-definitely not "locked-in" to a specific doctrine. I don't have an eschatological identity. I find that most of the prevailing popular "systems" have issues, and so I keep searching out the matter. Waiting to see how things shake out.

Last edited by Karl; 07-22-2016 at 04:14 AM.
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  #17  
Old 07-22-2016, 12:50 PM
Patrick H. Patrick H. is offline
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Could the beast possibly be a man-made machine (666, the number of a man) such as a quantum computer with built-in artificial intelligence? The materials used to make it come up out of the earth. "That was, and is not and yet is" could allude to the ambiguous way the Qbits function in the quantum processor where the switches can be on and off at the same time. It would also be capable of replicating itself, producing "images" everywhere, appearing and disappearing at will and tracking every person and transaction and even be piloted by the Devil himself...maybe?
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  #18  
Old 07-23-2016, 05:12 AM
Messy49 Messy49 is offline
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Default Really?

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Originally Posted by Karl View Post
I think most of this will be recognized only after the fact, just as the Messianic prophecies were. God concealing a matter. And I know it is the honor of kings, etc. but we see through a glass darkly. I see a lot of division within the body over interpretation. That's not to say it shouldn't be discussed. I don't think anybody has it right, or can have it all right, is my point. And I make it more a point to know what the Bible says, so I will recognize it when it happens, rather than spend a lot of time in speculation.

All that being said:

I find it interesting that all of the Protestant fathers (Luther, Calvin, Knox, Wycliffe, etc) agreed that the office of Pope was "The Little Horn". They didn't agree on some things, but on this point, there was agreement.

This would be a semi-example of recognizing prophecy in hindsight. The pope wasn't a future unknown character.

I sometimes have problems with the idea that all end time prophecies are future events. Future characters. That God left us with a 2,000 year prophetic "blank space".

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know it all, and I never will. I have most-definitely not "locked-in" to a specific doctrine. I don't have an eschatological identity. I find that most of the prevailing popular "systems" have issues, and so I keep searching out the matter. Waiting to see how things shake out.
Quite haugthy, at best, Karl!

Not one Scripture reference and you say " you know " what the Bible says.

This is a Biblical matter even though it is in this category!

I will be willing to debate you on Biblical subjects with open Bibles. You can even use the heretical " reformed " fathers material also if you would like.

Respectly believing that the the Bible is the literal Word of God,

Messy49, Ken
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  #19  
Old 07-23-2016, 09:16 AM
Messy49 Messy49 is offline
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Default word error

Respectly should read respectfully instesd

Messy
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  #20  
Old 07-23-2016, 01:10 PM
Xootneg Xootneg is offline
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Default Interesting perspective

FWIW, for me, I just try to keep a very open & flexible mind on end time matters. I certainly have leaning thoughts on it for sure, but I generally try not to box myself with absolutes in my thinking. It's just so easy to be wrong and so many are. I do think that there are certain constants for instance, link the beast coming out of the sea equaling the last end time empire and the little horn being the antichrist, etc etc.

I must say however, I continuously look into these things as world events evolve and very much enjoy looking into and studying end time matters just like I do for ALL the word of God. I simply can never get enough of it, severe hunger.

One of the latest world events, of course, is the Turkey coup and Erdagon actions. Walid Shoebat at shoebat.com had a pretty interesting take on it, found in the below link. More good food for thought, I think.

http://shoebat.com/2016/07/16/erdoga...your-lamps-we/
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