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Old 07-02-2009, 07:05 PM
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Nathan Nathan is offline
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Default Watchman's Cry is not Messianic - New Forum Policy

Brethren - Because of recent trends on this forum, I have arrived at a new policy.

I am starting to read a very uncomfortable leaning toward the belief that all of the remnant must follow all the laws and commandments. These threads usually have deteriorated and gone the way of arguing, dissension and are very dissappointing!

I just read on another thread that if any of us eat unclean food, then we need to repent.
Or if we do not follow the feasts, we need to repent.



These sort of statements, are the very thing that watchmanscry is against. And that is spiritual abuse, the twisting of Scriptures, and new revelation that become burdensome to the saints.

I am also noticing that many well-meaning individuals get caught up in the messianic trend, and find themselves with a whole new set of rules to abide by. Some of the justification that I read to defend this new position, includes new revelation which discounts the words of apostle Paul.

Brethren this is very dangerous, and it is wrong!

Watchmanscry is not a messianic only forum. Statements that are made that begin to sound this way, which nullify the cleansing blood of Jesus or that imply (that eating unclean food, etc. is a gross sin) is going to be dealt with!

Why? Because I do not find it in the Scriptures. By the way brethren, I am not going to debate this.

If you are messianic and you really feel that eating BLTs is a sin that needs repenting, I strongly disagree. Also to imply to our forum family that eating shellfish, etc, is a gross sin needing repenting, you will be addressed.

I am not saying that I am anti-messianic, I am saying that I am against messianic teaching that revives the things that Apostle Peter himself had to deal with , ie - feasts, unclean food, etc. with the intent of telling other forum members that we are in sin if we do not believe that way. Example the things on this post:

http://www.watchmanscry.com/forum/sh...02&postcount=1

I have stayed silent on these matters in the hopes that they would resolve themselves, but it is obvious that some messianic's are really desirous of shoving this false teaching down the throats of God's remnant.

In conclusion, I am no longer going to tolerate it, debated, or argue about it. In the future, if I see threads that argue these points I am going to lock them.

I am also going to PM the involved party and explained to them that watchmanscry forum is not messianic only.

I know that I sound very Blunt, but I see no other way.

Nathan's view on this matter explained -

The Bible tells us:

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" Hebrews 12:14
Brethren, I am seeking that peace would be pursued about these matters among the brethren, but I am left in want..


Where do I stand on these matters? Allow me to answer:

1. If you want to partake of feasts and customs= God Bless you, enjoy these things, you are free to do them according to the verse below.

2. If you feel led by the Holy Spirit to NOT partake of these things as a requirement for salvation, God Bless You, you are free according to the scripture below.


"Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ [is] acceptable to God, and approved of men. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure..." Romans 14:16-20

Let's break down these verses:

"Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; - Meaning, if you want to do the feasts and customs, let not others tell you they are evil - Nathan


"...or the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. "
- Meaning, you are not required to do the feasts and customs. You are also free. - Nathan


For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. - Either way you are free, and acceptable in God's eyes. - Nathan

So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. - This means, let us stop fighting over this matter brethren. Arguing about this matter goes against this passage. - Nathan


Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food.

- Again, wherever you happen to stand on this matter, let it be your matter. But do not FORCE your conviction on others. If I wish to partake of passover, it is MY business and not yours!! - Nathan


All things indeed are clean..." Romans 14:16 -20 - Freedom brethren, that means if I want to eat shrimp and bacon, it is my business and no one else. - Nathan


"The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. - This means whichever way you choose, it is YOUR conviction. That means that you have NO business trying to shove it down the throat of anyone. I am sorry for the bluntness, but these words need to be blunt!! - Nathan

...Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves." Romans 14:22

It is about peace brethren.

Up to this point, I am very disappointed with how stubborn I see some of you acting on these matters. I hate having to say this to grownups!

This forum is polluted with fighting right now and this is not the reason that we exist!

God Bless and God help us All!!

Nathan
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Last edited by Nathan; 07-02-2009 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 07-03-2009, 02:23 PM
BatZion BatZion is offline
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Praise Adonai! This messianic is glad to hear you say so Nathan!
May God grant us the unity that Yeshua asked for in his beautiful prayer in John 17:11.
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:24 AM
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Thank you Nathan. I have to say it was getting a bit confusing reading all the arguments for following the Torah, and not getting much explanation of what Paul was teaching.

You said it best!
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Old 07-05-2009, 11:21 AM
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freewill freewill is offline
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Yeah, I believe in the Full Gospel.

Reading scriptures from the OT point directly to the NT and
same from the NT to the OT.

I rarely read the bible without going back and forth between the two
testaments. That's how I mature as a Christian.

Why are some ashame to call themselves Christians?

Aren't we all Christians who follow Christ?

This is clearly Satan working to divide the remnant. Divide and Conquer of the Deceiver.

Still fighting over the same issue for 1,000's of years.

Nothing new under the sun.

Last edited by freewill; 07-05-2009 at 11:31 AM. Reason: i'm not perfect
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Old 07-05-2009, 11:22 AM
dean dean is offline
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Well done,Nathan.Im not trying to be rude but all these guys who call themselves 'messianic jews',its like there is a great pride in that.What about just being' christian'.Sad to say it but quite a few of these guys are borderline 'jewish zionists',and they don't even know it.

I have talked about this b4 so I won't go on,but a reason why some people resent this stuff is because some jewish people as a race seem to be full of pride,believing that they are more blessed or better.Im not into that though,you judge a person on their individual merits,regardless of their race or gender.

I have a greek background.What if I went around saying Im a greek christian.Sounds a bit funny to me.

Don't forget that in the old,old times,everybody had the opportunity to beome jewish and follow the Jehovah.But for some reason know many jewish people seem to think they are God's children,and they are not only not christian,but they don't even follow the Torah.Obviously,Im not telling people or encouraging them to become orthodox jews,Im just writing up what I see going on.Yes I do understand that in the near future God will bring many of them to Jesus.
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Old 07-05-2009, 01:27 PM
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Covenantmom Covenantmom is offline
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I appreciate this thread very much Nathan!

After much study & prayer over the last year I agree with you 1,000 %

I had to look at the scriptures in whole to see the truth.

Acts 11:26
and when he found him he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught large numbers, and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
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Old 07-05-2009, 02:04 PM
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Thank you Nathan. Good to read your post. I sure feel much better now. Last night when in prayer...I was praying about this very thing. I was saying that I know that I wasnt doing all that I should be doing...I was feeling bad about myself. And I had not even read what posts you were writing about.God gave me a peace that I really needed so that I could go to sleep. Then I came to read what you wrote. Praise Yahweh in the name of Yashua. Thank you.
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Old 07-05-2009, 04:05 PM
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Hear, Hear; God bless you brother. Thanks to our Lord that He has found favor with your heart and ear..You and we are truly blessed by his closeness with you and your willingness to recieve, you are truly the Watchman..
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Old 08-14-2009, 08:48 AM
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Default Andrew Strom on Return of the Judaizers

This commentary by Andrew Strom expresses some of the same concerns that Nathan does.


RETURN of THE JUDAIZERS??
-by Andrew Strom.

I have friends who call Jesus “Yeshua“. I don’t mind it at all. I have
other friends who keep the Saturday Sabbath. It doesn’t bother
me too much, unless there is a kind-of “aggressive attitude” about
it. But in recent years I have witnessed a worrying trend – that in
my opinion is growing worse – and we need to address it.

Today when a Christian tells me that they are “Torah-observant”
then all kinds of alarms go off. It may be that they are just into
‘Hebrew roots‘ – but usually it is a lot more than that. We all know
that in the early church, the biggest problem they had was with
the “Judaizers” who went around trying to convince the Gentile
Christians that they must obey the letter of the Old Testament
Law. This shipwrecked the faith of many. It was the biggest
problem they had. The book of Galatians is all about it – and many
other sections of the New Testament. It was a battle between the
old Law – with its subtle bondages – and the new walk of the Spirit
and of grace.

A few months back, we published the testimony of a Christian
woman who got involved with a Messianic group that slowly under-
mined her faith in Jesus – and basically converted her gradually
into a practicing Jew – even though they all thought of themselves
as “Messianic Christians”! She realized later that in almost every
way she had slowly had her faith in Jesus and the New Testament
replaced with the keeping of the Torah. She had been “Judaized”!
And I fear this is happening to a great many Christians today – in
all kinds of subtle ways.

This is exactly what the Bible warns against – losing the “simplicity”
of the faith. And that is why Paul was so strong against the Juda-
izers. He saw that Christians were being tempted – not to place
their faith in Christ alone – but rather in Christ PLUS the keeping of
the Law. It was no longer a simple trust in JESUS to be their
righteousness. They now started to feel they had to keep the letter
of the Old Law too – in order to be truly “holy”. And so they became
“Judaized”. This is the worst trap possible. And so subtle!

Let us look at a few vital Scriptures. Please open your Bible to
Acts 15:1-29. This whole passage is about a great meeting of the
apostles to decide whether – with the new Gentile Christians – it
was “necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to
keep the law of Moses” (v 5). So what did the apostles conclude
about this? As Peter declared during the debate about it, “Why
do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples
which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?” (v 10).

At the end of the great meeting, the apostles put out a letter to
the Gentile Christians that declared: “For it seemed good to the
Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than
these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to
idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual
immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.”
(v. 28-29). And as far as the Old Law went, that was it!

In other words, no “Torah observance”, no Sabbath, no circumcision,
no Old Law apart from these few things. This brief list only. That
was the pronouncement of the apostles. If they wanted to tell the
Gentiles, “You must keep the Jewish Sabbath,” then this was the
place to do it. But it is definitely not included. And neither are a
thousand-and-one other things from the Old Testament.

Of course, this should be no surprise to us. In Colossians 2, Paul
tells us very clearly that Christ has “wiped out the handwriting of
requirements that was against us” by nailing it to the cross (v. 14).
He then goes on to say: “So let no one judge you in food or in
drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which
are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”
(v. 16-17).

So all these Old Testament practices are only a “shadow” of the
New. In fact, as Hebrews makes clear, the entire Old Covenant
was only a ‘type’ or shadow of that which was to come. It was not
the real thing! It does not make us more “holy”! The substance is
found in Christ – and Him alone. The Old Torah “requirements”
were nailed to the cross with Jesus. We don’t need them any more.
If anybody ever tells you that the New Testament is simply a
“continuation” of the Old, run a mile from that person. They simply
do not know what they are talking about. In fact, what they are
spouting is dangerous heresy.

Thus, as Paul tells us in Romans, observing the Sabbath is only
necessary if our conscience is weak in this area – and we feel we
have to:- “One person esteems one day above another; another
esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own
mind. He who observes the day observes it to the Lord; and he
who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it”
(Rom 14:1-6).

So we do not “have” to observe the Sabbath. It does not make us
more ‘holy’ or righteous to do so. It is simply a matter of conscience.
This runs against a lot of the teaching that is doing the rounds
right now. There is a lot of dangerous “Back to the Torah”-type
emphasis that is bringing a lot of harm to a lot of people. Many
of them don’t even realize what is happening to them.

Paul clearly tells us in Galatians that you can lose your salvation
by beginning to rely on the Law in your Christian walk: “You
observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for
you, lest I have labored for you in vain” (Gal 4:10-11). He then
goes on to say, “You have become estranged from Christ, you
who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
(Gal 5:4). Alarming statements, are they not?

You see, it is a direct insult to the work of Christ and to God for
us to go back to the “works of the Law” to try and make us more
‘righteous’ in His sight. It is placing our trust in something other
than just Jesus. We are “adding works” for our salvation. And it
will not do.

I believe that just like the Galatians, a lot of people today need to
repent of trying to add the Old Law to their salvation – sometimes
in subtle ways – sometimes major. This is not the kind of thing to
toy around with. It can be utterly deadly. If you are someone who
is adding “Torah observance” to your faith, I urge you to repent.

The testimony of the woman who slowly lost her faith in Jesus
through Messianic Torah-observance can be found at the top of
our website. Here is the link-

http://www.revivalschool.com
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  #10  
Old 08-14-2009, 08:55 AM
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willybob willybob is offline
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Accually Paul and James were at odds over this. Acts ch 15

I call it the two house twist.
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