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Old 02-18-2009, 11:38 PM
Mark12:29 Mark12:29 is offline
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Originally Posted by ForeverGrateful View Post
Bump again. Thank you for this whole thread Mark12:29 !

Do pray that you'll post more.

HIS Strength to you.
You're still so sweet for your kind words, thanks so much.

The Almighty Lord Jesus is the One that wants us to know the Truth, & only His Truth can set us free & save us. So, may He continue use us all here to share, & then with open minds to receive His Truth & give Him thanks & gratefulness.

Someone said this:

TRUTH doesn't care what you believe...
the Truth is the Truth.
Everything else is just a lie.

And this is the principal.

His blessings be upon you & yours.

Bro. Kostas
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Old 02-19-2009, 11:24 AM
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ForeverGrateful ForeverGrateful is offline
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Brother, some years ago, I did a word search in the e-sword on "love" and after reading just the 200 something verses Just in the NT - I knew we HAVE TO LOVE ALL IF WE WANT TO BE SAVED.

HE puts that "LOVE for HIS BODY" INTO us. It's not within the "flesh's" capacity to do unconditional agape love.

I say I Love HIS BODY - but it's not me - only HE can LOVE like that.... in other words --- despite our differences - we MUST LOVE HIS BODY & ALL of mankind.

I've seen too much "crossing this one or that one off our lists" on Forums because of differing of opinions. In other words - what's being done is - "I don't like your opinion so I won't reply to YOUR posts." OR - I won't reply to your posts because YOU'RE NOT LIKE ME.


Yes, Amen on THE TRUTH and patience and long-suffering toward us all from our GOD to lead us ALL into ALL TRUTH as HE Promised.

HIS Love to you. HE Loves you!
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Old 02-20-2009, 03:07 PM
Mark12:29 Mark12:29 is offline
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not quite sure why you wrote this, but it finds me in the middle of a battle & a heavy attack I was under lately. Standing up for Truth, it makes the enemy real mad, he even rise up against me some people close to & me like dad & sis.

Anyhow, thanks a lot for remind me about Love.

Romans 8:9b says this: "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."

And you know what the Spirit of Christ says even in the tremendous time of pain & suffering?

Says this: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" Luke 23:34

Let's go back to the topic now,
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Old 02-28-2009, 08:02 AM
Mark12:29 Mark12:29 is offline
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Default a Discussion from another forum


Someone said:

"Hi Glenn,

Just curious as to what the PDC is and why you are opposed to it?"

Greetings and praise God:

The Purpose Driven Church is based on the doctrine and teachings of
Rick Warren. It is a repackaging of the teachings of Warren's
mentor, Robert Schuller. It is marketed primarily to pastors, with
the promise of "growing healthy churches".

It is a ~masterpiece~ of deception. It's deception lies in the use
of Christianized terminology, but pours entirely different (and
subjective) definitions into the same. It is a master of maintaining
what I call "Plausible Deniability", of claiming (in a believable
way) of being one thing, yet possessing an entirely different
substance. If in some instance (to which I am eyewitness) they teach
something that violates the principle of "plausible deniability",
they'll find the most graceful way to wiggle out of it. It is the
most slippery deceptive thing I've ever seen, akin to nailing jello
to the wall.

The Purpose Driven Life has been endorsed by a huge cross section of
anything and everything calling itself Christian. With even a grain
of discernment, that ought to be our first "red flag", ...unless of
course we are prone to accept anything that attaches the Name of
Jesus to itself in the name of ecumenism. I'm told that even non-
Christian sources endorse the Purpose Driven Life. It's adaptable to
any denomination, fellowship, or association, don't have to
be a Christian for it "to work".

Warren's primary target for his teachings are pastors. He states
exactly that on his website. Pastors are his target, because where
the shepherd's go, so does their flock. His selling points
are "growing healthy churches", and a business model which makes
sense. So if your hunger for a larger congregation exceeds your
hunger for the preaching of the Word, or being led of the Spirit,
Purpose Driven will appeal to you. (all the while kidding ourselves
that we're still preaching the Word, of course.)

Many congregations have opted for going through Warren's "40 days of
purpose" campaign to spread the vision to the flock. Countless other
congregations skip the labels, and their shepherds covertly "vision
cast" Warren's "5 purposes of the church". ...and the people are
clueless that they're being spoon-fed the agenda from the New Age
movement. (poured into Christianized terminology)

At the heart of the Purpose Driven doctrine is this: MAN is the
center around which the church gathers. The further a congregation
goes towards implementing a truly Purpose Driven model, the more man
will be enthroned. Ironically, they will typically have a great
sounding vision (mission) statement, adapted from their
leaders: "...honoring God by leading the lost so they become fully
devoted disciples of Jesus Christ." This is followed up by
emphasizing the "Five Purposes of the Church":

1) Evangelism/Missions
2) Education/Discipleship
3) Worship
4) Ministry/service
5) Fellowship (which they see as water baptism/service projects, et.

Rick Warren sees these "5 purposes" of the church in Acts 2:42-47. I
respectfully disagree. Because those things are OUTCOMES of
obedience to the Word, and being genuinely filled with the Holy
Ghost, not "purposes" which we orchestrate ourselves "on purpose" by
our own marketing plans or service projects. Warren doesn't even
believe in the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Symptoms of being in a Purpose Driven Church:

The services will slowly be designed to appeal to your "target
market". In other words, no matter what they say otherwise, MAN
(US/WE) is the central purpose of the meeting. Purpose Driven
doctrine believes the service should be designed ON PURPOSE. (key
term) It sees the Purpose of coming together as a church as
appealing to the FELT NEEDS/ PERCEIVED NEEDS(key term) of the TARGET
MARKET. (key term) The target market is an imaginary person, whom
your church leadership has predetermined as the kind of person they
want to attract to this church. (key concept) And the services are
designed around THAT PURPOSE. It is "niche marketing" at it's
finest. For example, if the target market is the attractive,
upwardly mobile 20 to 40 somethings, then play their music, pander
to what they might like, and get them involved in service projects.
In the meantime, the 70 to 80 somethings had better find another
church service. This is not of God.

You can imagine how I squirmed in a closed door elders meeting one
day. A brother, who knew something was drastically wrong but
couldn't "nail it down", came into the elder's meeting and announced
to us, that the "purpose of the Church was the Church". I
thought, "good grief, you have no idea what has been vision cast
around here for years! Because most of the people around this table
think the purpose of a church meeting is to appeal to unchurched
people." (not the edification of the Church as revealed in
Scripture.) A quick check of the discussion boards on
reveals how much Purpose Driven pastors despise the idea that church
services are for "the church".

This one is more slippery. Warren pulls no punches, promoting the-
gay friendly "Bible" (The Message) and umpteen paraphrases, which
are not the Word of God, but rather, man's interpretation of the
Word of God. Furthermore, the emphasis in Purpose Driven preaching,
is to vision-cast the "5 purposes" of Church, and to
preach "relevant" messages which appeal to "unchurched
Harry". "Relevant" preaching is understood to be that which appeals
to the flesh (sin nature) of the "target market". To that end, the
further a congregation is "transitioned" (key term) into the "new
paradigm" (key term) the more you will probably see the following:

Pantheism (God is in everything) is a common teaching of these
churches. (e.g.: page 88 of the Purpose Driven Life: "God is
everywhere and in everything", Rick Warren quoting a perverted
translation of the Bible)

Mysticism is a common teaching of these churches. (The Holy Spirit
is innately or inherently present or manifest in ritual, and gives
the unbeliever a point with which to connect and a means to receive
grace.) (e.g. "Ancient Future Faith, by Leonard Sweet)

Iconology, or use of "imagery" is a common teaching of these
churches. They seek to communicate faith (and thus the gospel) by
giving the people images, things or objects as a point of contact in
which their faith is projected, and a sense of "transcendence" (key
word) is created. Whether the imagery is from classical tradition,
or contemporary is not the point. It is rank idolatry. The "Emerging
Church" (key term) movement, (also called "Ancient Future") which is
within the Purpose Driven family, has a major emphasis of this

Re: More Information on Purpose Driven Apostolic Churches Part II

The more "transitioned" the congregation is to the "new paradigm",
the less conviction of sin, and preaching against sin there will be.
Period. The Purpose Driven website openly gives a 5 star rating to
books (e.g. by Henri Nouwen) that teach the prodigal Jesus (the
sinful Jesus) doctrine by the same author. They apparently feel the
unchurched can relate to this Jesus. (it's also the Jesus whose
Blood cannot atone for sin, so ultimately, this is really a denial
of the substitutionary atonement.) It place of repentance, you're
probably more likely to receive teachings about "how to live
better", or something that will make you feel good, the "gospel of

4) Other Oddities:
From my standpoint, the Purpose Driven doctrine doesn't really care
what you might believe about the nature of the eternal Godhead, the
new birth, Daniel's seventieth week, or even the Name of Jesus, and
(many) other issues. They'll all pay lip service to (the doctrine)
whatever organization to whom they pay homage, with the thought that
their way is just "A WAY" to God....not THEE way. Why do you think
so many new agers and non-Christians are quoted so cutely in the
Purpose Driven life? Or why does Rick Warren's "peace plan" for
mirror that which is promoted in (Neal Donald Walsh's?) the New Age?

Here's why: the Purpose Driven Church / Purpose Driven Life is New
Age spirituality posing in Christianized terminology for consumption
by the undiscerning church. It is not of God.

Other interesting experiences in the seeker sensitive / Purpose
Driven Church: My family were eyewitness and the direct recipients
of the following in our years within the seeker sensitive, Purpose
Driven Church:

1) Do not sing songs about the Blood of Jesus. (it apparently
confuses sinners; however this was reversed consistent with the
principle of plausible deniability.)

2) Do not pray in tongues in any manner that can be overheard by
anyone. (it apparently confuses sinners, do it at home.)

3) Do not prophesy in the church. (it apparently confuses or scares

4) Do not sing songs with a copyright older than 1990. (it doesn't
reach to our target market, however this was reversed by an attempt
to implement Ancient Future values.)

5) Do not tell the people that God wants to heal them. (we've had
too many people die of cancer.)

8) Do not worship God in the dance, or no dancing in the Spirit.
(unless it's a carnal dance which sinners can understand.)

6) Jesus was a prodigal son. (the sinful Jesus doctrine to which
sinners can relate, which was predictably retracted, consistent with
plausible deniability.)

7) Mild cussing from the pulpit. (it's cool, and sinners can relate
to this)

8) Usage of multiple paraphrases of the Bible during preaching. (not
to expose the Word, but to make it fit)

9) A repudiation of any sense of holiness or separation from the
world. (after all, the PDC *IS* the world)

10) A repudiation of the prayer meeting within or apart from the
primary meeting. (sinner's can't relate to it.)

11) A sense that service works, programs, or "methodology" did not
flow out of the grace of God, but rather, our works were to OBTAIN
graces of God, and get people saved by the "evolutionary"
or "absorption" method. In other words, get people involved, and
sooner or later, they might get saved. ( doesn't work.)

12) A failed attempt to import the "Ancient Future" model (or
the "Emergent Church" movement, a child or substrate of the Purpose
Driven paradigm) which amounts to nothing more than the
catholicization of Evangelicals.
(mysticism,iconography,transcendence, the (modified) stations of the
Cross, et. al.)

13) Being filled with the Holy Spirit is whatever that means TO YOU.
(oh really?)

14) Opposing the PDC is often viewed (by the false doctrine of
egalitarianism) as thinking we're "better" than everyone,
or "prideful".

Who is speaking out against the Purpose Driven Church? It appears
there are three groups:

1) Fundamentalist Christians concerned for the expository preaching
of the Word.
2) Traditionalists that simply don't like change.
3) Those with a heart for revival, renewal, and the unity of the
SPIRIT based on the Word.

I estimate 75% (?) of the churches in our county had been directly
affected by this teaching, some of which apparently have been
completely overthrown by it. A great many otherwise sincere people
have been involved with it, without knowing that this IS something
controversial and dangerous. A year ago when I started my
investigation, there was next to nothing critical of the PD paradigm
on the web. That's beginning to change. Today, any web search engine
will result in hits critical of this movement. Warren Smith's
book "Deceived on Purpose" came out last summer, to be followed by
James Sundaquist's book, "Who's Driving the Purpose Driven Church"
this year. I recommend both.

I respect those who differ in what they understand the Word of God
says. That's the way it was between churches when I grew up. We KNEW
where people stood; not so anymore. Unfortunately, the Purpose
Driven people are EXPERTS at plausible deniability: they effectively
profess one thing, but effectively do another, but claim that it's
just a "change in methodology". Rick Warren has the magic ability to
say ridiculous things, yet make it sound believable. That's what
makes the Purpose Driven Church so "slippery".

All of the above are labor pains in what birthed us out of a Purpose
Driven Church, and to plant a new congregation. Consequently, I
incorporated the following in our congregation's logo: "Bible
Community Church: A Spirit Filled Church for All People". It speaks
indirectly to the issues I've stated above:

1) "Bible"--we value the expository teaching of the word.
2) "Community"--we value Body ministry, pursuant to 1 Cor 14:26.
3) "Spirit Filled"--to say it plainly, we value being filled with
the Holy Ghost.
4) "Church for All People"--This is an indirect way of saying, this
church isn't just for a trendy target market (niche) we have in
mind. It is for fat people, skinny people, poor people, rich people,
educated people, non-educated people, whatever,...gathered around
the headship of Jesus, His Word, and the manifest working of His
Spirit. (we're not gathered around whatever fad/methodology we think
will draw people to us.)

To the credit of our former congregation, I'm grateful for their
gracious public send-off with blessings, at the very end of what had
become a very unhappy "marriage". We left behind many people whom we
love dearly. To that end, we have gambled everything we have, and
have struck out on our own, as I was born to do years ago.

I laid on the floor before the Lord one night, literally arguing
with Him. And I felt the Lord was saying, Turner, if you don't
go....who will? I said, "when?"....and I felt that He said: "do not
wait too long". This is what I was born (again) to do. So here we
go. And quite frankly, it's been a great relief and joy! Alleluia!

Last edited by Mark12:29; 02-28-2009 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 02-28-2009, 08:08 AM
Mark12:29 Mark12:29 is offline
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Posts: 64
Default Part 2

The "5 Purposes" are the hooks with which they sell the teachings of Warrenism
to pastors. I respectfully submit that what Warrenism teaches as "purposes"
aren't purposes, but rather, are Scriptural OUTCOMES of obedience to the Word of
God. And this is what the purpose driven movement, and our sin nature rejects
wholeheartedly: obedience to the Word of God. Warrenism thinks to appropriate
the last several verses of Acts chapter two, while rejecting what prefaced those

The stated goals of Warrenism look good at first glance. That's what makes it
so deceptive and slippery. But what they won't tell you, is that it is laced
with poison: New Age spirituality, universalism, pantheism, feminism, globalism,
mysticism and liberal theology. That's what the Purpose Driven movement is
about. Warren's has promoted teachings (via books) on mysticism, (Romanism
with a new face) the femininity of god our mother, and the sinful jesus (Jesus
as the prodigal son) doctrine, and probably much more of which I am unaware.

Warren is an expert at what I've called "plausible deniability". In other
words, claim to be one thing, yet be another: "doublespeak". And he has a magic
ability to say ridiculous things, yet seem believable. In my opinion, it is the
fruit of a seducing spirit.

Daniel said:
The five purposes that Rick Warren outlines in his book are these:

1. You were created to worship God.
2. You were created to minister to others.
3. You were created to evangelize the lost.
4. You were created to belong to God's church/family.
5. You were created to be discipled and to disciple others.

Which one of these five purposes do you believe are not biblical?

My response:
What Warren does not tell you, is that he is redefining these terms. None of it
is as revealed in Scripture. Worship is no longer worship. Ministry is
redefined as service works. Evangelism is by osmosis or evolution. Fellowship
is redefined as "water baptism" and socialization. Discipleship is not
according to revelation of the Word. And all of the above are carefully guided
by the "felt needs" or "perceived needs" of the target market.

Daniel said:
Is it unbiblical to provide a series of classes for membership and training in
the ministry?

My repsonse:
There's nothing un-Scriptural about classes, or training. This is nothing
unique to Warrenism. We were doing that long before the spectre of being
purpose driven swept the country. What is unique to Warrenism is the
philosophy and/or content of the classes, which are anathema to the Cross,
repentance, conviction of sin, and COMING TO GOD ON HIS TERMS, -not ours.
Warrenism (or better said, the ministries Warren promotes) typically fosters
classes that offer man's way to achieve the 5 purposes. And hence, you'll
typically see classes on every concievable ("good") subject, -except the
expository teaching of the word and moving of the Spirit with power. (i.e.:
they'll usually be man centered, works centered, on how we should try harder,
work smarter/better, live happier/healthier.....all of which is man centered.
(In my opinion, it is result of the man of sin, the son of perdition, standing
in the holy place, -the Church.)

Daniel said:
Is it unbiblical to expect that people get off their blessed assurance and work
in the harvest?

My repsonse:
I agree and concur, -while the PDC claims "the harvest" as it's goal, it is
anything but that. Warrenism turns the truth on its head, by bringing the
Church into bondage to (good) works AS A MEANS to achieve the five purposes,
-instead of good works occurring naturally as the OUTCOME of the ministry of the
Word, and moving of the Spirit. They don't want anything to do with the
expository teaching of the Word, or the sovereign move of the Spirit.
Warrenism rejects it, -ESPECIALLY in the main gathering of the Church, -so
they'll cleverly patronize and isolate those so inclined by giving them a closet
somewhere on a weeknight to do whatever they want.

Warrenism rejects separation from the world. It values "come as you are"
theology. It rejects the sovereign move the Spirit of the Lord: to be Spirit
led is NOT the same a purpose driven. It is the "christianizing" of psychology,
and applying it to "church". (Jung, Freud, & Maslow) It is a union of the
Holy, with the profane, -which claims to be Holy.

It is the result of the seed of Abraham (truth) joining with the seed of Hagar
(the world), producing a a creature (an Ishmaelite) which by its very nature,
-persecutes children of the Truth. Been there, done that. Prophets of God,
beware. Because this "creature" is and will be "drunk" on your blood before
it's over.

The Purpose Driven movement has swept virtually every denomination in the United
States. That alone should be a red flag. Only a few revivalists and
fundamentalists have had the discernment to "just say no" on Scriptural grounds.
(Traditionalists also oppose the PDC, but for entirely different reasons,
-they simply don't want their ritual disturbed.)
Daniel said:
... what is it about this whole system that is not biblical. Instead of
throwing out accusations of some dark conspiracy that you read on some website
(which I find ridiculous after reading them) --

My response:
It's not "by accident" that Warren's "5 point peace plan" is identical with the
New Ager's peace plan. Warren is doing what he is doing "on purpose". He
cleverly promotes pantheism on purpose. (page 88 of the PDL) He promotes the
homosexual affirming bible on purpose. His targets pastors on purpose. He
moves people "around the bases" on purpose. He avoids the confrontational
aspect of the gospel...on purpose.

One of the spiritual laws all the way back to Genesis, is that things, including
people, reproduce "after their own kind". Warrenism is a repackaging of
Schullerism in a manner to make it palatable to (undiscerning) Bible believers.
Warren won't tell you that in the PDC/PDL. They are universalists, for whom
being "born again" or genuine repentance and turning from the world and to the
Lord Jesus Christ is but a fantasy promoted by "legalists". ("legalism" is
Warrenism's own doublespeak for what we know as fundamentalist, Bible based,

I still have my workbook from one of Dan Sutherland's famous seminars for
pastors: "Transitioning: Implementing the Purpose Driven Church". In short, it
is a two day crash course on how to take over a church...and make it purpose
driven. It does not happen "by accident". I only wish I knew those years
ago, what I know now. But there are no shortcuts in this business.

Know that one doesn't implement the PDC quickly. It takes years. In the
process of doing so, some will wake up to what is happening, and "just say no".
Those people are called
"resisters". I became one before leaving the PDC. God knows I didn't "just
say no" because of tradition, -nor is it because I'm against discipleship
classes, or programming on purpose. The division brought by the Purpose Driven
doctrine came over the baptism in the Holy Ghost, the refusal to preach against
sin, the rejection of revival and expository teaching/preaching of the Word, and
the bondage being put on the people. In reality, Icabod was written over our
door. ...all in the name of attaining God's "five purposes", and growing a
"healthy church".

Daniel said:
probably written by people who believe more in guarding their precious manmade
traditions than seeing real revival and growth -- can you provide some evidence
that the things written in the material is false?

My response:
There are two excellent books which speak to the subject of exposing the purpose
driven movement:
1) "Deceived on Purpose", by Warren Smith, and
2) "Who's Driving the Purpose Driven Church", by James Sundquist.
Both are available on .

Smith establishes the (New Age) foundations of being "purpose driven", and
exposes the (Robert) Schuller connection. While Sundquist exposes the teachings
of Warrenism from a Scriptural perspective. I recommend both for anyone
involved, pastors or otherwise, in the seeker sensitive, purpose driven

Many brothers and sisters believe in what the purpose driven movement promises
to deliver. Some, are taken in by their desire for a bigger church. (which is
likely the single largest attraction for pastors) Others simply go along with
the purpose driven movement, knowing something is amiss, but don't know why.
Either way, my prayer for them is that they come to discern that everything that
attaches the Name of Jesus to itself, is not of God. And the object of their
faith once again be turned to Jesus and what He did, and not what we can
program into people to "discover our purpose" in life.

"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
...them that are weaned from milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept
MUST BE upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line;
here a little, and there a little..." (Is 28:9-10)

Many blessings in Christ Jesus,
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Old 02-28-2009, 02:59 PM
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Handmaiden Handmaiden is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 201


CGM has many aliases, including "Seeker-Sensitive Church,"
"User-Friendly Church," "Purpose-Driven Church," "Cell or Meta Church,"
"Mission-Driven Church," "Disciple-Making Church," and "The 21st-Century Church."

This "stuff" is being taught to students in Bible schools. I attended King's College online working toward a degree, and their curriculum was filled with this kind of teaching.
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:25 AM
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Donna Donna is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Idaho
Posts: 9,691

We here people say, "at our church, we like to focus on the grace."

I find that creepy. I always want to say,:

What is wrong with the rest of God

Have you tried that technique with your spouse. Only focus on his/her looks.

Try it with your kids. Just have grace for all of their choices!
Isa 50:7
For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.
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Old 03-15-2009, 10:10 AM
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All4Him All4Him is offline
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Location: Colorado
Posts: 823

This thread has really helped me to understand the connection I have felt with new age stuff and the church, and why I have not been a permanent member of any church for quite some time. Visualization is a very dangerous thing for sure, and something we should stay away from no matter what venue it shows up. When I found out that many of the pastors were endorsing the "self improvement how to's" I knew something was very wrong because many of the things they lead people to do to improve themselves.. is grounded in satanism. Many "network marketing" things are also based in this false teaching. I will take some time going through all of the links that you posted, Glenn. Thank-you for posting all of this information!
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Old 05-22-2009, 01:42 PM
hemholder hemholder is offline
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Join Date: May 2009
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Posts: 170
Default Brok & Nathan....

Good video. I wish every christian could see it, and maybe more people would be able to see what is going on in the churches, and get out of this junk.

I knew quite awhile back where it was all headed, but only because the Word tells you in the first place. Now today after watching this video, I find our present situation in America VERY interesting! I never considered this whole plot to get us all out of our homes (forclosures), and crammed into community structures of one sort or another. hhhmmmm

I knew we had to come to this economic place for our soverieghnity (sp?) as a nation to be squashed, and for globalism to come to fullness, but *****, they are killing two birds with one stone here, and from what I see in the churches, the transition has already taken place. Very sad.....

QUESTION FOR NATHAN.... hey, I noticed at the bottom of the video it was edited by you. Was it too long, and you just had to shorten it, or was there things you actually cut out for another reason? Just curious what was missing....

Peace & love, Michelle
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